Author Topic: Robbed  (Read 8378 times)

Offline WayOutWest

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Re: Robbed
« Reply #30 on: May 28, 2008, 11:49:58 AM »
Now they have to take care of business in game 5.  You can't give this Spurs team any hope and you don't want to be heading back to San Antone 3-2 if you're the Lakers.  The Spurs are too battle tested and mature.  If any team is going to come back from being down 3-1, it's this one. 


No doubt!  No way the Lakers take two in SA.  If the Lakers don't take care of buisness in game 5 you are definately looking at a game 7.  The Spurs have been there done that, the Lakers on the other hand are showing their youth and inexperience.
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Offline westkoast

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Re: Robbed
« Reply #31 on: May 28, 2008, 11:50:25 AM »
Fish bumped him, no doubt.  But you're not going to get that call at the end of the game, 30 feet from the basket when part of the collision is due to Barry putting the ball on the ground, taking a dribble and trying to go around Fish for the shot.  It was a foul, but you're not going to see that call made. 
Kobster at Staples would not have gotten that call. ::)
A foul is a foul is a foul.  All this conditional stuff is just justification attempts.

No he wouldn't because there have been 2-3 games this year with Kobe having to take a last shot to tie the game and he's been fouled, no call.  You can play the way if game in Fantasy land all you want but you know very well a foul is not a foul in the final minute.  You don't know if Kobe would get the benefit of the call.  I've never seen him get the benefit of the call in that situation in the playoffs.  Maybe you can tell me specifically which game(s) you are referring to that would make you think that.

Do not try to pretend like the Spurs never have fouled someone at the end of a game for nothing to be called.  I don't think you really want to go there Reality.  Also, why are you ignoring Fisher's shot hitting the rim and the fact that Parker's shot was indeed blocked, not goal tended?


My response to DB and about MSC's initial post is back on page 2.....
« Last Edit: May 28, 2008, 11:52:31 AM by westkoast »
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Offline Reality

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Re: Robbed
« Reply #32 on: May 28, 2008, 11:52:18 AM »
No he wouldn't because there have been 2-3 games this year with Kobe having to take a last shot to tie the game and he's been fouled, no call.  
:D :D not meritous of a response.

Offline westkoast

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Re: Robbed
« Reply #33 on: May 28, 2008, 11:53:02 AM »
No he wouldn't because there have been 2-3 games this year with Kobe having to take a last shot to tie the game and he's been fouled, no call.  
:D :D not meritous of a response.


Fantasy can you tell me all the playoff games where Kobe has been bailed out by the refs on the final play?  In fact can you name ANY game where Kobe has been bailed out on the final play of a game.

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Offline WayOutWest

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Re: Robbed
« Reply #34 on: May 28, 2008, 12:02:48 PM »
Kobster at Staples would not have gotten that call. ::)
A foul is a foul is a foul.  All this conditional stuff is just justification attempts.

Kobe gets the call? YES!  Sasha, Farmar, Walton or Fisher?  NO!

Parker, Manu and TD would have got the call, but the Spurs could not get the ball into their hands.

As to the alleged numerous calls in favor of the Spurs in the 1st and 2nd qtr, i find its only by getting into specifics that any conclusion can be reached.  So if you are able to point out specific plays, i am happy to discuss.  I have DVD'd the game, plus my being owner of Reality Inc allows me to have some days whereupon i can review.  I objectively saw just as many bogus calls favoring the Lakers, specifically Duncan getting hacked by both Gasol and Turiaf.  Should have put the Lakers in serious frontline foul trouble, instead several bogus no calls, most notably the 81-77 foul by Turiaf.

Start at the 5 minute mark when the Spurs could not slow the Lakers down.  The refs took over at that point.

Kobster was called fairly for a change.  He did have several very bogus fouls rung up on Bowen, they just were non shooting fouls.  So the "no calls for Kobe" is a misnomer.

Bowen played excellent defense on Kobe, it was all the contact after Kobe got by Bowen that is in question.
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Offline westkoast

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Re: Robbed
« Reply #35 on: May 28, 2008, 12:10:03 PM »
Kobster at Staples would not have gotten that call. ::)
A foul is a foul is a foul.  All this conditional stuff is just justification attempts.

Kobe gets the call? YES!  Sasha, Farmar, Walton or Fisher?  NO!

Parker, Manu and TD would have got the call, but the Spurs could not get the ball into their hands.

As to the alleged numerous calls in favor of the Spurs in the 1st and 2nd qtr, i find its only by getting into specifics that any conclusion can be reached.  So if you are able to point out specific plays, i am happy to discuss.  I have DVD'd the game, plus my being owner of Reality Inc allows me to have some days whereupon i can review.  I objectively saw just as many bogus calls favoring the Lakers, specifically Duncan getting hacked by both Gasol and Turiaf.  Should have put the Lakers in serious frontline foul trouble, instead several bogus no calls, most notably the 81-77 foul by Turiaf.

Start at the 5 minute mark when the Spurs could not slow the Lakers down.  The refs took over at that point.

Kobster was called fairly for a change.  He did have several very bogus fouls rung up on Bowen, they just were non shooting fouls.  So the "no calls for Kobe" is a misnomer.

Bowen played excellent defense on Kobe, it was all the contact after Kobe got by Bowen that is in question.

Why not play the Reality defense WOW instead of actually pointing out specific things?

Can't you just point out the number of FTs the Spurs got compared to the Lakers to pretty much lay everything out?  That is how he does it.  You've got to make him understand by using his own logic.  That might be the only way to really get your point across here.

Spurs shot a lesser % from the floor, they shot a lesser % from 3, they were out rebounded, outside of Barry their bench was out played, and they never once took the lead the entire 48 minutes.  We can debate about the refs all we want but something that is not debatable is what I just mentioned.
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Offline msc

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Re: Robbed
« Reply #36 on: May 28, 2008, 12:10:09 PM »
Fantasy can you tell me all the playoff games where Kobe has been bailed out by the refs on the final play?

Not even Kobe gets that call.  Just like Reggie said in the post game, you're not going to get that call unless you raise up and shoot.  Even then, it's tough to get that call on the last play of the game.  

Yes, it was a foul.  No excuses.  But the refs have "let them play" pretty much all series and I don't see them making that call from 30 ft. out at the end of the game.  

I'm happy to breakdown DVR with you, Reality, but what's the point?  We can both agree there were some bad calls both ways throughout the course of the game.  Do you honestly feel the Spurs deserved to win that game?  Did they outplay the Lakers at all in that game?  They had several opportunities to take the lead and throughout the course of the game and simply missed open looks.  Did you at any point in that game feel the Spurs were the better team that night?  Do you honestly believe the officials were the deciding factor in that game?  

It's easy to isolate one call, especially at the end of the game, but looking at the entire picture, it's clear who won the game fair and square.  

You should take a lesson from the team to whom you've hitched your bandwagon.  Not one of them complained about that call.  It starts from the top with Popovich, and every player down the road said that call was a non-factor and they gave credit to the Lakers to sticking it to them in their building.  First, the Spurs are class acts, and even if they believed it, they wouldn't cry about it.  Second, and more importantly, they were on the court and they know they were badly outplayed and didn't deserve to win.  So they're not giong to come out and cry about a no call at the end of the game that would likely never be called in any game.  Take a lesson from "your team".  


Offline westkoast

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Re: Robbed
« Reply #37 on: May 28, 2008, 12:16:55 PM »
Reality I tried to use the search feature to find out what you had to say about Bob Delaney not calling Bruce Bowen for grabbing Lebron at the end of game shot in Game 3 of the finals last year.  Could you remind me what you had to say about that play?  Wouldn't this be the same situation?  I don't remember you being upset that there was a no-call in that instance.

You know i've given up on trying to get you to admit that the suspension of the PHX Suns last year looks like Sternfish trying to pull for the Spurs to the finals like you so love to claim about the Lakers but I'd like you talk about the play I just mentioned.

(Spurs fans this is strickly for the bandwagon.  I just want to get a point across here to Fantasy)
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Offline SPURSX3

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Re: Robbed
« Reply #38 on: May 28, 2008, 12:32:17 PM »
Reality I tried to use the search feature to find out what you had to say about Bob Delaney not calling Bruce Bowen for grabbing Lebron at the end of game shot in Game 3 of the finals last year.  Could you remind me what you had to say about that play?  Wouldn't this be the same situation?  I don't remember you being upset that there was a no-call in that instance.

You know i've given up on trying to get you to admit that the suspension of the PHX Suns last year looks like Sternfish trying to pull for the Spurs to the finals like you so love to claim about the Lakers but I'd like you talk about the play I just mentioned.

(Spurs fans this is strickly for the bandwagon.  I just want to get a point across here to Fantasy)

Don't worry WK, I can't see how you can defend a team for the horrible play they brought, not to take away from LA, they did what they had to do, but my team just does not "want it", it seems, as badly as they should, or more than LA does...  Maybe I would feel better if we got the win in LA, but by the way we are playing right now, I would say that is a tall order - that is the second game we let slip away from us.  IMO the Spurs should be up 3-1, but hey, your guys stepped up, while my team is lacking..LA deserves it for coming to play hard each game.
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Offline WayOutWest

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Re: Robbed
« Reply #39 on: May 28, 2008, 12:50:31 PM »
Don't worry WK, I can't see how you can defend a team for the horrible play they brought, not to take away from LA, they did what they had to do, but my team just does not "want it", it seems, as badly as they should, or more than LA does... 

The other thing to consider is the Spurs are older, especially their bench.  The Spurs have the heart of a champion but not the legs.  Missing wide open looks at home tells me they are tired.  The Spurs core is good for at least 3 more years but they MUST address their bench and supporting cast.

IMO the Spurs made a MAJOR move in aquiring Kurt but he has not seen much action.  It seems the Spurs always seem to find a diamond in the mud, not in the rough, but in the mud.  The mud that other teams seem to gloss over.  IMO the Spurs will find one or two diamonds next year, heck they might even pull of a solid trade.  I read somewhere that the Spurs have already come to terms with some Euro guy named Splitter or something, they have high hopes for the guy and he might be in a Spurs uniform as soon as next year.

The Spurs did make a major mistake in giving up on Scola, he has been a terrific addition to the Rockets and would have been the perfect blend of youth, savy and skills to complement the Spurs core.  Scola is everying Flabs was SUPPOSED to be and more.
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Offline Lurker

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Re: Robbed
« Reply #40 on: May 28, 2008, 12:52:48 PM »
I'll chime in.  Of course the loss was the refs fault...obviously the Lakers pushed off on every offensive rebound.  Pop has to share the blame by ordering the equipment manager to put the special lead linings in the players shoes that made them look slower than the Lakers.




Nice win by the Lakers.  They kept at it and won by out hustling the Spurs.  The offensive boards were particularly harmful at the end of the second & third quarters.  Both times the Spurs either tie or close within two and then give the Lakers 2 or 3 chances on each possession.  The Lakers beat the Spurs at two areas that have been strong points in the title runs: rebounding & closing out quarters.


As I told my wife at the beginning of the playoffs: I am concerned about the Spurs chances.  They have not gelled as a team all year except in November.  They just never developed that rhythm that you look for going into the playoffs.




P.S.  If you want to get into missed calls IMO one of the biggest was when Odom jumped from out of bounds to grab an offensive board without establishing himself on the court first.  Early in the 2nd quarter I think...and helped stop one of the Spurs runs.  

Also I think that if the roles were reversed with Barry jumping on Fisher that the whistle is blown.  Sort of like 2006 when Bavetta gave Dirk a touch call to tie the game.  But the Spurs should have won the game before the final seconds.
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Offline westkoast

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Re: Robbed
« Reply #41 on: May 28, 2008, 12:57:28 PM »
Reality I tried to use the search feature to find out what you had to say about Bob Delaney not calling Bruce Bowen for grabbing Lebron at the end of game shot in Game 3 of the finals last year.  Could you remind me what you had to say about that play?  Wouldn't this be the same situation?  I don't remember you being upset that there was a no-call in that instance.

You know i've given up on trying to get you to admit that the suspension of the PHX Suns last year looks like Sternfish trying to pull for the Spurs to the finals like you so love to claim about the Lakers but I'd like you talk about the play I just mentioned.

(Spurs fans this is strickly for the bandwagon.  I just want to get a point across here to Fantasy)

Don't worry WK, I can't see how you can defend a team for the horrible play they brought, not to take away from LA, they did what they had to do, but my team just does not "want it", it seems, as badly as they should, or more than LA does...  Maybe I would feel better if we got the win in LA, but by the way we are playing right now, I would say that is a tall order - that is the second game we let slip away from us.  IMO the Spurs should be up 3-1, but hey, your guys stepped up, while my team is lacking..LA deserves it for coming to play hard each game.

I don't think it's taking away from the Lakers when you say that at all.  Watching the Spurs come out in that game last night I see exactly why you feel that way.  The Lakers clearly wanted it and the Spurs did not seem to want it as much.  There was a point, towards the end of the 2nd, that they looked like they wanted it but then the Lakers answered with that 6-0 run before the half.

It is not a stretch for you to say that you guys should be up 3-1.  I think game 1 was the Spurs to win and I think last nights game was very winable *IF* they played hard from the tip.  They knew it was a huge game and they were at home.  Yet they did not respond like they should have.  That mental mistake is something a young team like the Lakers would be making (as you saw in game 1) and not something you see the defending champs make.   You can't just turn it on at this stage in the playoffs as all the teams up to this point are quality teams and are somewhat playoff tested as they've got through 2 teams by now.  They had a chance to really jump on the Lakers early to remind the young pups who the champs are but choose (or could not) do it for any number of reasons.  I said it before the series that the Spurs were not going to out shoot or out run the Lakers.  What they needed to do is mess with them mentally.  Sorta like they did with New Orleans.  Last night was the perfect chance to make this squad second guess themselves.  They failed to do that and I think it cost them the series.

Lurker...you are correct on that play.  I did not see Odom touch the court after being out of bounce.  He jumped from out of bounce back in to make the play.   This is another play, like the goal tending/block play, where it's hard for refs to make those calls in real time.  If you watch the replay the baseline ref, who should have made the call, wasn't even paying attention to Odom.  I don't blame him for it either because he also had to watch all the bodies in the paint and can't just be staring at Odom's feet to see if he was back inbounce before he jumped.

As for comparing Fish/Barry with Dick giving Dirk the call....Dirk was the MVP and a star player.  Fisher and Barry are not.  I don't think that call gets made for either of them.  I also don't believe anyone gets that call in general unless Dick Bevetta is the official.  The last two times something like a last second foul being called to decide a game it came off of his whistle being blown.
« Last Edit: May 28, 2008, 01:06:49 PM by westkoast »
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Offline msc

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Re: Robbed
« Reply #42 on: May 28, 2008, 01:03:01 PM »
I'll chime in.  Of course the loss was the refs fault...obviously the Lakers pushed off on every offensive rebound.  Pop has to share the blame by ordering the equipment manager to put the special lead linings in the players shoes that made them look slower than the Lakers.




Nice win by the Lakers.  They kept at it and won by out hustling the Spurs.  The offensive boards were particularly harmful at the end of the second & third quarters.  Both times the Spurs either tie or close within two and then give the Lakers 2 or 3 chances on each possession.  The Lakers beat the Spurs at two areas that have been strong points in the title runs: rebounding & closing out quarters.


As I told my wife at the beginning of the playoffs: I am concerned about the Spurs chances.  They have not gelled as a team all year except in November.  They just never developed that rhythm that you look for going into the playoffs.




P.S.  If you want to get into missed calls IMO one of the biggest was when Odom jumped from out of bounds to grab an offensive board without establishing himself on the court first.  Early in the 2nd quarter I think...and helped stop one of the Spurs runs.  

Also I think that if the roles were reversed with Barry jumping on Fisher that the whistle is blown.  Sort of like 2006 when Bavetta gave Dirk a touch call to tie the game.  But the Spurs should have won the game before the final seconds.

I agree with everything you said Lurker except the last part.  Unless Fish, Barry, Kobe, Manu, whoever is in the act of shooting and get's hit on the arm or body, I don't see that call being made down the stretch.  The refs aren't going to let a little bump while the player is taking a dribble 30 feet from the basket decide a game.  I just don't see it regardless of the teams playing or players involved.  


Offline Reality

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Re: Robbed
« Reply #43 on: May 28, 2008, 01:46:43 PM »
Fantasy can you tell me all the playoff games where Kobe has been bailed out by the refs on the final play?

Not even Kobe gets that call.  Just like Reggie said in the post game, you're not going to get that call unless you raise up and shoot.  Even then, it's tough to get that call on the last play of the game.  
  Kobe gets that call 100% of the time.  Had Barry jumped into Fisher like he should have, Reggie, Kenny, Charles and i dare say this board unanimously agree Barry would get the call for sure.  For 3 FTAs.  Bad move putting the ball on the floor for sure.

Quote
I'm happy to breakdown DVR with you, Reality, but what's the point?  We can both agree there were some bad calls both ways throughout the course of the game.

I was all for addressing this:
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It was ridiculous for a while there at the end of the 1st and in to the 2nd qtr.  Kobe taking 29 shots and not getting to the free throw once?  WTF? 
along with WoW and much of Laker Nations drizzle about how the whole game the Lakers should have gotten 10-20 more FTs then the Spurs.  I would also like to address specific plays where Duncan took it to the foul plauged Laker frontliners but none of you want to go there, apparantly.

Quote
Did they outplay the Lakers at all in that game? 
For stretches?  Absolutely.  I would call it 50-50 for who was outplaying who and when.  In fact the Spurs made many more stupid mistakes that benefitted the Lakers/kept the Lakers in the game then vice versa.

Quote
They had several opportunities to take the lead and throughout the course of the game and simply missed open looks.  Did you at any point in that game feel the Spurs were the better team that night? 

Totally agree and swinging the ball to tired Parker for wide open Js while people like Bowen and Findawg passed up open jumpers was to the Spurs undoing.  Also many of the wide open 3s had a Laker defender bullrushing the Spurs shooter.  Fake the shot, put the ball on the floor and either get a closer shot or take the ball to the rack if possible.  See what happens.  They died by the 3 or long jumper with the wrong players taking the shot.

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Do you honestly believe the officials were the deciding factor in that game?
  On the final play absolutely.  The game as a whole, once again Poppycock is Phils bitch.  That is obvious and cumulative.

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It starts from the top with Popovich, and every player down the road said that call was a non-factor and they gave credit to the Lakers to sticking it to them in their building. 

Tim Duncan is the "top' of the Spurs and Coatails Pop should be considered a dream come true opponent coach for any RealLakers.  If you can't see the Phil Winters-Pop Cementhead disparity then i cant help.


Quote
First, the Spurs are class acts, and even if they believed it, they wouldn't cry about it.  Second, and more importantly, they were on the court and they know they were badly outplayed and didn't deserve to win.  So they're not giong to come out and cry about a no call at the end of the game that would likely never be called in any game.  Take a lesson from "your team". 


First, i think anyone truly interested in fair hoop likes to see calls made correctly, irregardless of the team or player and especially with end of game altering calls.  People who lable others "crying" about clearly wrong calls to merely show their defensivenes and unwillingness to objectively talk about a call.  There is nothing classy about approving/condoning wrong calls, be those calls for or against Kobe, Shaq, Duncan or anyone.  That none of the Spurs players or Lord Poppycock would condone the call is like whatever to me. 
Its a sad state of pro sports all this situational calling/noncalling.  It's also obvious that not only the NBA but MLB and the NFL have no real interest in getting the majority if not the vast majority of calls correct with their lame nonuse of replay.

That having been said, yes the Spurs more then had their chances all game long and should not let it come down to a blown call like that.  Starting Finley was retarded and was yet another Pop special.  The 22-8 deficit was a tough one to overcome.



Offline westkoast

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Re: Robbed
« Reply #44 on: May 28, 2008, 02:05:55 PM »
Reality I tried to use the search feature to find out what you had to say about Bob Delaney not calling Bruce Bowen for grabbing Lebron at the end of game shot in Game 3 of the finals last year.  Could you remind me what you had to say about that play?  Wouldn't this be the same situation?  I don't remember you being upset that there was a no-call in that instance.

You know i've given up on trying to get you to admit that the suspension of the PHX Suns last year looks like Sternfish trying to pull for the Spurs to the finals like you so love to claim about the Lakers but I'd like you talk about the play I just mentioned.

(Spurs fans this is strickly for the bandwagon.  I just want to get a point across here to Fantasy)
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I don't know what is more funny.  You running and hiding from this or the fact you think the Spurs out played the Lakers 50-50 in the game yet were never able to take the lead.
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